tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post2221581401530745614..comments2024-03-22T02:17:52.141-07:00Comments on Bad UFOs: Skepticism, UFOs, and The Universe: Implants and Aliens and Scalpels, Oh My!Robert Sheafferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-48874125301989175252013-03-25T21:45:11.910-07:002013-03-25T21:45:11.910-07:00Mr. Sheaffer, I commend your civility in the face ...Mr. Sheaffer, I commend your civility in the face of belligerence.<br /><br />A couple of things spring to mind:<br />Why would NASA want to cover up a discovery of this magnitude? Wouldn't it be in their interests to have something significant like a hollow moon become public knowledge? Talk about job security!<br />Also, it's fairly difficult to "keep it under wraps" when the info has been around for 50 years now and pretty much anyone can find it out. Ultimately, it begs the question- why would someone even want to fabricate an entire satellite?jozzcooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346278013676621644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-84449586461314196422012-12-24T11:11:29.965-08:002012-12-24T11:11:29.965-08:00The Moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions...The Moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions have a higher average density than the corresponding types of earth rocks.<br />Mare basalt, which makes up a lot of the Moon's surface, has a published density of around 3.3-3.5 g/cm3, still higher than the Moon's average density. The materials less dense than this are rocks from the original lunar crust, in the lunar highlands. It is a logical assumption that the material should get denser in the Moon's mantle. I would also be interested in seeing original reports on the densities of the lunar materials; it is a bit odd that they do not seem to be published on the internet.<br />NASA assumed initially that the Moon had the same average material density as the earth (5.5 g/cm3 and that may be the case, for all we know; no one has ever drilled into the Moon deeper than a few feet. You previously stated that you also believed that the interior of the Moon was much like that of the earth. <br />I think that 4.0 g/cm3 is a reasonable value for the average material density of the Moon (as opposed to the ACTUAL average density, calculated from it surface gravity and diameter) but no one currently knows the exact value. In any event, it is bound to be greater than that of the density of the mare basalt found in the lunar basins.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-31118255744054340802012-12-24T10:43:04.676-08:002012-12-24T10:43:04.676-08:00Steve,
See the chart in this paper from the 42nd ...Steve,<br /><br />See the chart in this paper from the 42nd Lunar and Planetary Science Conference: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2011/pdf/1986.pdf. <br /><br />The density of the Apollo samples ranged from about 2.6 to 3.4 g/cm3. The average sample is approximately 3.0 g/cm3. This is less than the moon's calculated mean density of 3.34 g/cm3, and about what you expect if the moon's heavier material tends to be near the center.<br /><br />You say that "The average density of the earth is approximately 5.5 g/cm3. The rocks brought back by the Apollo missions were denser than Earth rocks, and contained a lot of free iron and other metals." Not true, the Apollo samples are much lighter than 5.5 g/cm3. If you start with a wrong assumption, you will reach a wrong conclusion.Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-59635936173294105682012-12-17T14:54:53.687-08:002012-12-17T14:54:53.687-08:00I am also quite surprised that you would take a &q...I am also quite surprised that you would take a "conspiricay theory" site like ATS seriously; isn't that against your own rules? <br />In any event, The Dr. Gordon MacDonald quote I referred to apparently came from the July, 1962 edition of the Journal "Astronautics", and the Dr. Sean Solomon quote came from Vol. 6 of "The Moon-an International Journal of Lunar Science". Neither of these journals is exactly easy to get ahold of in original form, but I will do so, just to prove a point.<br />I also remember that the possibility of the Moon being partially hollow was being openly discussed in the media, back then, and not much additional data on the Moon has been gathered since.<br />Just for the record, I feel no "burden" of proof from you; I do not owe you anything, and no one has agreed to appoint you as guardian of public opinion, in any official capacity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-14031049573424812032012-12-16T21:50:41.199-08:002012-12-16T21:50:41.199-08:00That phys.org article you referred me to also did ...That phys.org article you referred me to also did not show any DATA, or PROOF! You are simply taking the word of some grad student, hey, way to go Mr. Skeptic; apparently all you care about is who says it, rather than what is said, logic, or any real proof.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-5464531941289678612012-12-16T21:37:06.375-08:002012-12-16T21:37:06.375-08:00Perhaps I can put the argument in a form here that...Perhaps I can put the argument in a form here that even a person like yourself can understand, Mr. Scheaffer. It goes like this:<br />1) The average density of the Moon is 3.34 g/cm3, as calculated from Newton's Law of Gravitation, using its diameter and surface gravity<br />2) The least dense crustal material on the Moon is about this density, and it is likely that the average density of the Moon is more like 4.0-5.5 g/cm3, the higher figure applying if one is to postulate that the Moon's interior is much like that of the Earth's, as you seem to believe. The average density of the earth is approximately 5.5 g/cm3. The rocks brought back by the Apollo missions were denser than Earth rocks, and contained a lot of free iron and other metals.<br />3) The relatively low density of the Moon then does not follow, logically, from the density of the materials, unless there is a large amount of space in the Moon's interior with much lower density; if one assumes that the low-density space is empty space (the most likely possibility) and calculates the amount of empty space necessary to give the Moon the observed density, then one obtains a figure of approximately 40% empty space for an average (Earthly) material density of 5.5 g/cm3, and approximately 16% empty space for an average lunar material density of 4.0 g/cm3. Either way, that is a lot of Lunar caverns.<br />4) The Apollo seismic data indicates that seismic waves do not penetrate well below 25 miles below the surface, and the Moon "rings" for hours after an impact event; seismic waves do not die out nearly fast enough to allow for a molten iron/nickel core, as on Earth, and the Moon's low average density does not allow for much of a metallic core at all, as iron has a density of nearly 7.9 g/cm3. This argument, from NASA's own data, is the basis for my statement that the diagram of the Lunar interior you referred to, and NASA's more recent statement that the Moon's interior is much like the Earth's are fiction.<br />This data is consistent with a hard rock crustal shell 25 miles-50 miles thick, with extensive cavern systems below it, and above the lunar mantle.<br />5) NASA also has direct evidence of large lunar caverns, or "negative mass concentrations (MASCONS)" as they are called, from the tracking data from the Lunar Orbiter and Apollo Missions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-89078123815298051132012-12-16T20:43:41.796-08:002012-12-16T20:43:41.796-08:00Mr. Scheaffer, I'm really not trying to sell y...Mr. Scheaffer, I'm really not trying to sell you anything. It is you who invited this debate by telling me I was full of it. Well, in my opinion, so are you. <br />I offered to provide references, and my calculations, on the condition that you promise to look at them, but I do not intend to waste my time sending you stuff that you probably will not even read. Your mind is already made up; you are not a scientist, or investigator, but simply a professional naysayer. No amount of proof is ever enough for guys like you. I simply think that more investigation of these phenomena would benefit humanity a lot more than would sweeping them under the proverbial rug.<br />If you think my colleagues and I are so offbase, why not just go away to your mutual admiration society at CSICOP, and continue to be a legend in your own mind.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-80276350046798111082012-12-16T15:19:07.511-08:002012-12-16T15:19:07.511-08:00Steve,
It sounds like you want me to find your ci...Steve,<br /><br />It sounds like you want me to find your citations for you, and to do your calculations for you. Sorry, but that's not how it works, not in any field of scholarly inquiry. Whoever makes a claim has the burden of proof to show that it's true. I have questioned those 'hollow moon' quotes you provided, and you seem to think it's up to me to find the source for them. Nope: You cite the quotes, you need to show that they are correct, and not taken out of context. <br /><br />I did a simple Google search, and came up with the following posting by "CLprime" that shows problems with the quote attributed to Dr. MacDonald. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread670039/pg12 And nobody has presented the original paper where this quote appears, people just re-post quotes of dubious authenticity.<br /><br />I showed you an article based on NASA data (there are many more) showing the moon's very solid interior, and you have not supplied any information to try to show that it's wrong. Look, the claim that the moon is hollow (at least in part) and hence artificial is definitely an Extraordinary Claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You haven't provided any proof at all. Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-91165211529249915852012-12-14T13:13:00.915-08:002012-12-14T13:13:00.915-08:00If you are some kind of engineer, why don't yo...If you are some kind of engineer, why don't you do the calculations yourself? I ran through them 3X, and that is what I came up with, confirming NASA's EARLIER statements about the internal structure of the Moon. What about the Apollo seismic data on the Moon? It is highly unexpected, to say the least, and is consistent with a shell of dense rock with extensive caverns below; these findings are still in the literature, check it for yourself!<br />The quotes I referred to are readily available in several books about the Moon, and were not taken out of context. If you are half the investigator you "claim" to be, then I should not have to spoon feed you this stuff, but I will provide references, if you wish, just to prove my point.<br />So, just because YOU consider my "claims" wild, without any real investigation on your part, that makes them invalid? I do not consider consulting NASA to be "investigation" as I have already stated that NASA is apparently trying to keep this under wraps. NASA scientists already stated that the data points to a partially hollow Moon, now they are retracting that statement, in the absence of any new data, and when the figures and siesmic data support their original conclusion; sounds a bit fishy to me.<br />Facts and figures do not lie; again, I urge you and your readers to do the calculations for yourself. I will send them to you sometime, if you promise to actually LOOK at them!<br />I have seen the NASA diagrams you refer to; they are apparently complete fiction, and are not backed up by any real DATA that I am aware of. It disturbs me that my tax money is going to put out such insideous disinformation.<br />Mr. Scaeffer, please stick to engineering, if that is/was your field; you are apparently a very poor researcher.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-69675433199671747392012-12-14T11:01:12.368-08:002012-12-14T11:01:12.368-08:00Steve,
That's a pretty wild claim, that not o...Steve,<br /><br />That's a pretty wild claim, that not only is our moon hollow, but NASA knows this! I contacted one scientist I know at NASA asking if they had ever refuted this claim, and he replied "NO, we would not issue a statement to contradict such obvious nonsense." Of course, they have issued statements contradicting the Apocalypse nonsense, so go figure.<br /><br />What is the source of those quotes you provide? Maybe they are not correct, or totally out-of-context. Also where are calculations you allude to, proving that the moon must be hollow? Astronomers absolutely do not agree with that. See, for example, the following article about the moon's interior on physics.org, with the diagram based on NASA data: http://phys.org/news/2011-01-lunar-core-deep-interior-moon.html . No hollow space there.Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-73098712307839918562012-12-13T14:13:08.897-08:002012-12-13T14:13:08.897-08:00Mr. Shaeffer,
Everything that was said at the MUFO...Mr. Shaeffer,<br />Everything that was said at the MUFON OC meeting that you attended was correct, to the best of my knowledge and belief, including my statement that Earth's Moon contains approximately 40% empty space.<br />This can be calculated from Newton's Law of Gravitation and the Moon's diameter, surface gravity, and the density of the surface material brought back by the Apollo missions. Please do the math, if you think you can handle it.<br />The Apollo seismic data showed that the Moon "rings" for hours after an impact, and the seismic waves do not die out quickly, as on Earth! This data is consistent with a shell of rock approximately 25-50 miles thick, with extensive caverns below, and either a very small, or no, iron/nickel core. NASA has known about this for years, and they want to keep it under wraps; after all, their own scientists stated that: "If the astronomical data are reduced, it is found that the data require that the interior of the moon is more like a hollow than a homogeneous sphere." -- Dr. Gordon MacDonald, NASA "...the Lunar Orbiter experiments vastly improved our knowledge of the moon’s gravitational field... indicating the frightening possibility that the moon might be hollow." -- Dr. Sean C. Solomon, MIT<br />and "a hollow object cannot be a natural object"--Dr. Carl Sagan.<br />You can believe as you wish, Mr. Shaeffer, but you are contradicting NASA's own statements when impuning my statements at that event.<br />I have no direct knowledge of the implant in Whitley's ear, but I have spoken with him about it and with Dr. John Lerma, who attempted to remove it and witnessed its movement. He did manage to remove a piece of the device and said that microscopic examination showed what appeared to be cilia, apparently to allow the device to move under the skin. I have also spoken with three other people who said that they had similar implants.<br />I DO have direct knowledge of the last two implants that Dr. Leir removed from patients, having witnessed their removal, and thoroughly analyzed them. Please read my reports on the two objects here: http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Articles/AnalysisOfImplant.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16285065751364394464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-24402232527481011512012-07-31T00:28:36.385-07:002012-07-31T00:28:36.385-07:00If Whitley is ever called on it and an interviewer...If Whitley is ever called on it and an interviewer pulls an otolaryngologist from behind the curtains, no doubt the resulting lack of implant and scar tissue will be used as evidence the aliens -- sensing skeptical treachery! -- retrieved the device and used their techno-magic to restore the ear to complete wholeness.<br /><br />> your name as it appears on official documents...is always in capital letters<br /><br />This is a popular dodge of tax evaders (even Wesley Snipes tried it). It got very popular during the housing crisis as a means to cancel debt and contract obligations.<br /><br />What Maxwell probably doesn't mention to audiences is that many courts have ruled on these arguments and so far not a single defence has prevailed (Snipes got three years in jail, his tax advisor Eddie Kahn got 10). In fact, selling this sort of dodgy legal advice is fraud too (Kahn got another 20 years for doing so).<br /><br />http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/May/10-tax-620.htmlTerry the Censorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361088223337740598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-46562135060197436522012-07-29T21:43:20.995-07:002012-07-29T21:43:20.995-07:00First, in the interest of clarity, I will drop the...First, in the interest of clarity, I will drop the asterisk in Rockin. I don't really want to be known as "Old Rockin&#39: Dave.<br />Second, encouraged by your reply, I request you join me in asking our lawmakers to put into law that the next time the US enters into a war that it be officially known as The War of Strieber's Ear. It's a win/win concept. Either it will make Americans too embarrassed to support or fight in it, or it will draw in the people usually too cool to care about anything important, and with their help we will win it handily.Old Rockin Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-9237611802966792352012-07-28T00:27:05.703-07:002012-07-28T00:27:05.703-07:00Tyler,
In a rational world, your comments would s...Tyler,<br /><br />In a rational world, your comments would surely carry great weight. However, I doubt that describes the environment of the L.A. area MUFON.<br /><br />Strieber said that he did not want to have the "implant" removed, he wanted to leave it right where it is (near the top of the pina of his left ear) for the rest of his life. Perhaps it may perform a beneficial function for him, he speculated. And if I recall correctly, I believe Strieber said that the doctor who attempted to remove it earlier has since died, thwarting any efforts to question him (except by John Edward, or Sylvia Browne). <br /><br />Nonetheless, you are correct that this still does not preclude examination or study of the alleged object. A properly-trained doctor or physiologist could examine the alleged object by touch, by X-rays, or ultrasound, MRI, etc., noninvasively and painlessly, yet obtain significant information A) establishing the reality of an "alien implant," and B) learning much about its physical properties. In fact, I can see no reason why Whitley did not say, right there and then, "Roger, please come over here and look at my ear and give me your opinion about this implant!" Except for the obvious one: Whitley made up the whole story about the "implant."<br /><br />Then there is the question of what happens when the Great Flying Saucer comes to carry Whitley Strieber into the Beyond, as it does for all of us. In the manner of an organ donation, Strieber should now sign a document permitting a certain laboratory to remove and examine this alleged "implant" after his death.<br /><br />Nobody in MUFON seems to think there's any reason to look further into Whitley's ear.Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-58583546998456137522012-07-28T00:05:55.424-07:002012-07-28T00:05:55.424-07:00Old Dave,
A similar thought occurred to me - the...Old Dave, <br /><br />A similar thought occurred to me - there is the making of a whole pop culture cult here.Robert Sheafferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324537021429419111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-15918015815521836742012-07-27T22:35:56.934-07:002012-07-27T22:35:56.934-07:00I'm not sure how relevant this is, but as I wa...I'm not sure how relevant this is, but as I was reading this it occurred to me that "Strieber's Ear" would be a great name for a band. A band that lived up to that name could be awesome indeed. It would also be good name for a war - the War of Strieber's Ear would not be soon forgotten.<br />Oh, well, I will forgive a lot from the coauthor of "Warday".Old Rockin' Dave.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-27263905171579607232012-07-27T09:12:33.175-07:002012-07-27T09:12:33.175-07:00Mr. Strieber's implant story is unbelieveable....Mr. Strieber's implant story is unbelieveable. That does not necessarily make it untrue. One thing to keep in mind is that another person (a physician/surgeon) was a participant and a video (inconclusive) of the surgery was produced. In principle, one could interview the doctor and assess how what he says fits with the published account of Mr. Strieber.<br /><br />But I find question posed by AlphaRalpha to be a dead-on and valid critique. Why let that thing sit uninvestigated all these years? Confirming its properties would corroborate Mr. Striber's stories firmly and perhaps be one of the premier discoveries of this or any other age. And I am sure it would boost book sales a bit. So it would seem Mr. Strieber ought to be anxious to do all he could to illuminate the nature of this implant.<br /><br />And there are additional questions for the surgeon; why allow a foreign object that can course freely through the body to remain in place? Maybe next time it will decide to block a cardiac artery, induce a stroke or track through the brain. OK, you couldn't get it, did you consult with other physicians as to how to proceed? The medical implications of this object (if factual) alone are staggering. So it would seem the doctor would wish to do more investigation due to an over-riding obligation to safeguard his patient's health and the recognition of the obvious potential utility of this technology to advance medical practice.<br /><br />Yes, Mr. Sheaffer, you encountered some weird stuff. To me, the most inexplicable aspect of the Strieber experiences is the fact that both he and a surgeon were content to relate incredible accounts of possibly earth-shaking magnitude and then simply abandon them as unsubstantiated and unfinished stories of the paranormal. Now that's weird.Tyler Kokjohnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8104600450225406597.post-58974574062899231022012-07-26T16:46:08.254-07:002012-07-26T16:46:08.254-07:00To ask an obvious question: since Dr. Leir was in ...To ask an obvious question: since Dr. Leir was in the symposium, and he has a lot of experience with implants, why didn't Mr. Streiber ask him to investigate the implant in his (Streiber's) ear?AlphaRalphahttp://alpharalpha.comnoreply@blogger.com